You mention this company should make their stuff available free online since it’s now out of business. I think that’s a great point. How about releasing the archived ABM shows?

Let me say, this is a topic I feel very passionate about - and when I get into it on the show I get fired up and my rhetoric can get a bit excited. But really - if I’m being honest - the whole materialist/atheist belief system is something I really, truly perceive as utterly absurd.

And I think this materialist brand of atheism really opens itself up for criticism - your “high priest” Richard Dawkins is a despicable, smug creep who heaps massive amounts of abuse and condescension on people who are religious. My “counter-attack” pales in comparison to the vile, poisonous rhetoric of Dawkins and others like him.

I am not religious, but I do believe in a “spiritual” world - not through “faith” but through rationality and direct experience. I look at the religions of the world as having things generally right - but getting things horribly confused and distorted when getting into specifics (”spirituality” is the right part, “religion” is the confused part). I would even count the idea of a single monotheistic god as one of those confused ideas (does that make me an atheist, technically??)

I don’t blame you at all for being upset - believe me, I get upset a lot when faced with smug atheist rhetoric, which one is exposed to a lot online these days. I guess this is what drives me to discuss the topic on my show.

Really, to me your belief system is flimsy and full of holes, while being aggressive toward other beliefs which, to me, are on more solid ground (not that that’s saying much). And I think it is important to state counter-arguments that are not rooted in religion. I think you have been duped into joining this atheist cult and I hope you can get out of it someday.

All this said, I hope you will continue listening to the show. And as I said, responses to my arguments are welcome on the show.

Frank

P.S. Here is the place I read the C.S. Lewis quotes:

http://atheism.about.com/od/cslewisnarnia/a/atheists.htm

C.S. Lewis was calling atheism “childish” long before any of us were born…

The “proofs” of science are only germane to the material realm, and hence only really “proof” to materialists. Since I am not a materialist, I don’t take science seriously when it tries to exceed its boundaries and explain the larger realms of existence.

I would not say that my point of view is better than anyone else’s spiritual/religious point of view. But I would say it is absolutely better than materialism. Materialism is intellectually obliterated by the blatant obviousness of intelligent design all around us. Strange, desperate theories like “evolution” that seek to counter this are, to me, truly pathetic.

Atheists are indeed childish. One reason is that they are bullies who enjoy ridiculing and taunting others - but who cry and whine when they are counter-attacked. Their arrogance and defiance, coupled with their extremely weak arguments, makes them very open targets. But like any other cultists, they cling to their beliefs, and cannot be moved no matter how powerful the counter-arguments may be.

I will admit I would probably be better off not engaging intellectually with bullying atheists. I do tend to get very passionate and emotional about this issue and use rhetoric that is on the abusive side. But what the hell, I’m not a robot, I’m a human being… what do you expect?? How much of this atheist B.S. can one person be exposed to before flipping out??? All those arrogant, mocking blog posts about the “Flying Spaghetti Monster”… give me a break…

This all reminds me of the futility of trying to argue with Scientologists about their beliefs. But at least they label their very odd ideas as a “religion”.

So, bottom line, I respect spiritual/religious beliefs off all kinds, even if I do not agree. But sorry, I do not respect materialism as a philosophy.

On the flat earth issue, my view is that we should keep an open mind on the nature of the cosmos, on that which is beyond the capacity of any of us to directly observe. I acknowledge that the “sphere in space” idea may indeed be accurate - but on the other hand, it may be a misinterpretation.

Good point, I will see what I can do about that.

Scientology is just ludicrous, like a bad joke or something.

This part just for fun:
The Earth is not only flat, but beyond that circles are at their heart straight lines, and reality itself a memory of an illusion projected backwards through time via vibrating strings into the
infinite possible futures all existing simultaneously.

But seriously here we are trying to understand something that it not capable of being understood. We are after all inside the system itself. How could we know?
Even our senses of this little slice INSIDE the system is limited by our sense abilities.
If that wasn’t bad enough we then have to rely on sybolic thought using word “signs” as referents to meanings which vary from one person to the next and in each person moment to moment.
Even more troubling is that our math which is as close as we can get to real meaning is itself just another abstraction of reality. We are however far our mind reaches still reaching from inside a system, trying to imagine a truth that can only be observed if one were to see the entirety from outside the system. ad infinitum.

Atheism by definition is a lack of spirituality or belief in such ideas.
I don’t hold Richard Dawkins in any position of authority, and I know extremely little about his writings, philosophies and work. I’m an atheist because I’m interested in knowing how things work, and to that end, I’m open to ideas which can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, by measured experimentation and observation under strict conditions to discount variables.
Religion, spirituality, whatever you may call them, will never be able to achieve this.
Second of all, atheism isn’t materialism. It’s atheism. You’re muddling the two ideas to your own end.

To claim something is absurd, childish or anything otherwise, you have to provide substantiating evidence to support such claims. You can provide none. The claims you and Chad both make about athiests seem very personal, opinionated, hypocritical and contradictory to your own statements. You’re talking about atheists being “bullies”. How exactly would you describe the behaviour you’re displaying towards them?
In addition to this, to claim atheism is absurd based on your own experience of it, which it seems to amount to Richard Dawkins, quasi-religious reactions to atheism, and your own personal opinions, and then claim the Earth is flat, just beggars belief. THAT is absurd.

I can’t help but think certain social aspects come into play here too. You live in North America, which is widely considered to be a very religious, spiritual country and culture. I live in Western Europe, where atheists are the majority, and religion has little credence in everyday life. It’s well known that atheism has been slandered and demonised in the US, by exactly the methods you display here, in essence, looking at it as a belief system, when in actuality, it simply amounts to a lack of belief. There is no organisation as you seem to think, no governing body, and no set of rules or ideas. It’s not angsty, it’s not a reaction to any other religion, it’s simply that individuals aren’t willing to accept philosophies without solid proof. If that’s how you see it based on your life in the US, then I can’t comment. I don’t live in your culture.

I think it’s pertinant to point out that both Chad and yourself seem to be making your own ideas up as you go along, but think yourselves somehow fit to comment on, and criticise an ideology(not a teaching or system) which bases itself in proven facts, and reasonable doubt, and substantiating evidence, WITHOUT providing any to back up your own makeshift ideas.

Saying something can’t be understood is a mistake, because they simple fact is, it CAN. Regardless of any lack of knowledge, I’m only willing to side with the guy who makes an effort to work out the facts, not the person who believes whatever they feel like, without proof.

In answer to the claims of childishness, I think any adult looking at both yours and especially Chad’s responses, would be in no doubt who’s being childish here, because it certainly isn’t me.

Anyway, you said it yourself. It’s a difference of opinion. You’ll never see things the way I see them, and vice versa, I’ll never see things the way you do. It’s a sad day when people can’t simply be interested in the reasons and turns that lead someone to their way of thinking, rather than backing off in offense at them with invalid criticism.

First of all, thanks for sticking with the show.

Beyond any rhetoric which is abusive in tone, I hope you agree with me that this kind of vigorous intellectual debate is a good thing.

As far as my background, I was brought up without religion, and I have never been a part of any religion. But I have been on a personal spiritual journey since I was young, and I have had many spiritual/supernatural experiences.

Here’s a definition of “atheist” (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist): “a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings”.

Now, I do believe in HIGHER beings, but as far as SUPREME beings go… I’m not too much into that idea, so under a strict definition, I might be considered an “atheist”.

I do always try and reiterate that I realize that I could be wrong in my ideas. But in order to make choices in life, we all have to weigh various percentages.

For example, let’s take Christianity. Many Christian sects say that you must accept Jesus as Lord or, upon your death, you will be cast into the fiery pits of hell. Okay, I get that. And I very strongly feel, personally, that this particular setup is in question. I do admit that I COULD be wrong, and that the Christians could be 100% right. However, in my own judgement, the probablity of this being correct is so low, to me, that I am not compelled to join that religion.

(To clarify, I feel that I will likely not be subject to any Christian afterlife “hell” because of my non-involvement. However, people who are Christian may indeed go to some wonderful place after they die because of their involvement with Jesus. My personal view is that reincarnation is preferable to being in some place under the care of a superior being. But that’s just me.)

SO… what I would love to see from the atheist community (who I understand, cover a wide range from materialist to spiritual) is… to approach the idea in a bit of a more flexible way. Like… “evolution? yeah we really think it’s probably the way we got here, but perhaps we are wrong, maybe it’s something we haven’t thought of yet, or even perhaps (though very unlikely) it was intelligent design”… “yes, perhaps Christianity is true, but I don’t feel the chance is high enough for me to want to join”… like that.

And finally… I guess it is hard for me to imagine living a life without spiritual/supernatural experiences. But I must conclude that many people do indeed never experience anything like this. And maybe that is why there are so many materialist atheists (as opposed to spiritual atheists, which - like I said - under certain definitions - is a category I myself might fall under).

Frank

Thank you for your well written response. It is wonderful to see people writing things on this website. When I visit Frank’s website, I always hope to see more things written by other listeners. Obviously we all have something in common by our presence here, so I would love learn about other people who enjoy Frank’s show.

I want to assure you that I understand where you are coming from. I was raised an atheist. By the time I personally became convinced that there was something deeper about this reality through direct personal involvement I had spent 20 something years fighting the religous establishment you mention as existing in America. My beliefs are not their beliefs. I wouldn’t expect yours to be mine either.

I believe that we are all on a journey. My personal opinion is that you will find what you are looking for. I hope that it will involve love and compassion.

I found my personal answer while studying quantum mechanics and time travel.